in West Lafayette, Indiana
51 months ago
Surveying equipment CAN be more PRECISE now than it was years ago but not necessarily as accurate given the users ability to properly operate it. Accuracy depends on the operator him/herself and how well he/she minimizes errors in surveys. The surveys of 1.01 ac. after the original were more than likely “cheap” surveys where the surveyor just copied the original legal description. It all depends on the ranking of evidence and procedures in your state. If the current surveyor found the monuments undisturbed that were set originally (rebar, iron pins, etc.), then his/her measurements of the area are probably more precise and closer to correct (no one can say exactly what the correct measurement is; It is IMPOSSIBLE to be exact in surveying(that’s why there are standards in professional surveying)). Also, this doesn’t mean GPS was used. GPS is a very convienient and precise tool, but one can be just as accurate using any tool given to them (if they know how to properly operate it). Also, if the rules are the same as Indiana, if the original monuments are found udisturbed, they hold as correct, not the measurements as recorded, so if the original surveyor set the monuments, but couldn’t measure worth a darn, then it’s probably not actually 1.01 ac as recorded.
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Brian in Buckingham, Pennsylvania said:
Hi Joel,
Thanks for the response. I almost forgot that I posted,.
We have a neighbor who’s septic encroaches on his neighbors property by about 4 feet. The lot size is 1.01 acres (for 21 years now and multiple surveys). “mysteriously” , this year his surveyor “through current standards and state of the art equipment” – in his words, the lot now comes in at .9956 acres and there is no more encroachment.
I just sounds a bit fishy to me….
Any thoughts??
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Allison
in Roseville, California
50 months ago
You say ‘if the original monuments are found undisturbed, they hold as correct, not the measurements as recorded’…. where would I find if that is the “rule” here in California.
In a conversation with my surveyor, he mentioned this as a fact, but was unable to tell me where to research it in the state codes, etc. Any hints??
[QUOTE]If the current surveyor found the monuments undisturbed that were set originally (rebar, iron pins, etc.), then his/her measurements of the area are probably more precise and closer to correct (no one can say exactly what the correct measurement is; It is IMPOSSIBLE to be exact in surveying(that’s why there are standards in professional surveying)). Also, if the rules are the same as Indiana, if the original monuments are found udisturbed, they hold as correct, not the measurements as recorded, so if the original surveyor set the monuments, but couldn’t measure worth a darn, then it’s probably not actually 1.01 ac as recorded.
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Mark
in Rapid City, South Dakota
50 months ago
Try Gordon v Booker, 97 Cal. 586 (1892)
Mark
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Allison
in Roseville, California
50 months ago
Thank you very much, Mark!! With that clue I was able to go directly to some case citation that I can use in court to back up all the other ‘evidence’ that I have. I had searched before but was not finding exactly what I needed. I have an idiot of a neighbor. ;-}
Again…many thanks!
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Michael J. Walters PLS
48 months ago
Brian in Furlong, Pennsylvania said:
This may be a strange question. At a recent public meeting, a Civil engineer stood up and suggested that a property in our area that is listed as 1.01 acres is actually .9959 acres.
Even though the original survey from 1976 shows the lot as 1.01 acre and so do 5 or 6 separate surveys done by different engineers in the mid 80′s, 2002 and 2005.
This current civil engineer states that “it’s not really an exact thing” … (What??? I thought it “kind of was”). He goes on to state that modern technology (I’m guessing GPS even though he did not mention this), makes it possible to be more accurate.
Is this true?? I’ve gotten many surveys on properties that I’ve owned and many times, the surveyors actually would hit an original iron pin that was buried deep in the soil from a previous survey ! I’d say that’s pretty darn accurate.
I was just curious if someone could give me some info on this or let me know if this guy is full of B.S. At 1.01 acres, the property next door (that the same owner still owns) has a septic system that encroaches on this 1.01 acre property and I suspect this is why he wants the other lot to “mysteriously” come in at .9959 now. The smaller size just “misses” the neighboring sand mound.
Any thoughts??
Although technology is better than ever, in my opinion, the boundaries established from such technology do not necessarily yield a more accurate result. It all boils down to “proper procedures”, which, if not followed, will yield questionable results. I have retraced hundreds, if not thousands of surveys in California only to find some of the most accurate of them to have been done with transit and chain. GPS and electronic total stations used today are GREAT TOOLS, and if used properly, will yield great accuracies, however, if not, garbage in-garbage out.
The markers found (if original, undisturbed, and called for on the property survey, will hold.
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Wm Bollinger SIT
in Herrin, Illinois
47 months ago
It’s my understanding that the size of a lot is determined by the legal description in the deed and it is the surveyors roll to re-establish the boundary based on the legal description. In Illinois the legal descriptions usually have distance measurements associated with them, be it a parcel or a lot in an addition. Also, in Illinois area is the least controlling measurement. The size of a parcel shouldn’t change based on how recent a survey is done.
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Jack Chiles
in Spring, Texas
39 months ago
Actually, every time a parcel or tract is resurveyed, the surveyor performing his task is trying to relocate, or failing to do so, reestablish (reset) the property corners in their ORIGINAL POSITIONS. Say he finds all of the corners and they are undisturbed (very unusual, to say the least) and he measures their spatial relationships with the other corners he found. He computes their positions and makes a report (plat or drawing), calculates the acreage and states it on said drawing. Now, it might be different than the originally calculated area, ot it might not. As surveyors we are allowed a certain positional tolerance (think of it as a corcle with the found corner being the radius point). Here in Texas, that tolerance is a tenth of a foot (1.25 inches), roughly. A surveyors work performed in 1948 will not be as precise as the work of a modern-day surveyor. The technology has changed tremendously. With that in mind, a small parcel, such as an acre or less, may have been surveyed as precisely as, or perhaps even more precisely, than one done today. Why, you ask. The technology today is more applicable to longer measurements over larger areas. A correctly calibrated chain and a plumb bob are just as accurate as the most expensive equipment made. The problem with the chain and plumb bob is that they are only as accurate as Electronic Distance Measuring (EDM’s) tools for short distances. The time and effort needed to traverse long distances with a chain and plumb bob is exponentially greater than the effort with the equipment of today. Remember, the equipment we use was made (ultimately) by us and we are flawed. Therefore, our equipment is also flawed. No two surveyors will always measure the same distances and angles as another. This is why we usually have differences in acreage, even though the tract really hasn’t changed.
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Jacob in KC
in Lees Summit, Missouri
29 months ago
The house behind my house was recently sold and the new owner is in the process of building a fence. The property was recently surveyed and I just found our that the previous owner of my home placed a couple of the sprinkler heads the beyond the recently marked property line. I live in Kansas City , the neighbor’s property was surveyed by a local company with years of experience. I am in the process of asking the new neighbor to see if he can move a couple of the fence posts 1-foot into his property to free and clear my sprinklers. Is there a point for me to have my property survey when it appears that the surveyor found the appropriate monuments? What do you think?
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pls5528
in Rocklin, California
29 months ago
Frankly, I think you are making a big thing out of nothing. What happened to the days that neighbors can talk about small tater issues like this and work it out. If it’s a big deal to you, move the sprinklers in a bit (plastic moves fairly easy).
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Jacob in KC
in Lees Summit, Missouri
29 months ago
Thanks pls5528 in Rocklin, I got it resolved by talking with my new neighbor. I ended up moving the sprinklers because the fence was installed the same day I spoke with my neighbor. He offered to pay 30% of the cost of moving the sprinkler heads. Thanks for the comment.
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pls5528
in Rocklin, California
29 months ago
You are most welcome. I am so glad it worked out, and perhaps (as neighbors) you may be good friends.
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Lance
29 months ago
Brian in Furlong, Pennsylvania said:
This may be a strange question. At a recent public meeting, a Civil engineer stood up and suggested that a property in our area that is listed as 1.01 acres is actually .9959 acres.
Even though the original survey from 1976 shows the lot as 1.01 acre and so do 5 or 6 separate surveys done by different engineers in the mid 80′s, 2002 and 2005.
This current civil engineer states that “it’s not really an exact thing” … (What??? I thought it “kind of was”). He goes on to state that modern technology (I’m guessing GPS even though he did not mention this), makes it possible to be more accurate.
Is this true?? I’ve gotten many surveys on properties that I’ve owned and many times, the surveyors actually would hit an original iron pin that was buried deep in the soil from a previous survey ! I’d say that’s pretty darn accurate.
I was just curious if someone could give me some info on this or let me know if this guy is full of B.S. At 1.01 acres, the property next door (that the same owner still owns) has a septic system that encroaches on this 1.01 acre property and I suspect this is why he wants the other lot to “mysteriously” come in at .9959 now. The smaller size just “misses” the neighboring sand mound.
Any thoughts??
I can assure you that boundary surveying is NOT an exact science. Many factors come into play,such as human error, different interpretations of deeds and legal descriptions over the years,etc.
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Phil Mould
27 months ago
Brian in Furlong, Pennsylvania said:
This may be a strange question. At a recent public meeting, a Civil engineer stood up and suggested that a property in our area that is listed as 1.01 acres is actually .9959 acres.
Even though the original survey from 1976 shows the lot as 1.01 acre and so do 5 or 6 separate surveys done by different engineers in the mid 80′s, 2002 and 2005.
This current civil engineer states that “it’s not really an exact thing” … (What??? I thought it “kind of was”). He goes on to state that modern technology (I’m guessing GPS even though he did not mention this), makes it possible to be more accurate.
Is this true?? I’ve gotten many surveys on properties that I’ve owned and many times, the surveyors actually would hit an original iron pin that was buried deep in the soil from a previous survey ! I’d say that’s pretty darn accurate.
I was just curious if someone could give me some info on this or let me know if this guy is full of B.S. At 1.01 acres, the property next door (that the same owner still owns) has a septic system that encroaches on this 1.01 acre property and I suspect this is why he wants the other lot to “mysteriously” come in at .9959 now. The smaller size just “misses” the neighboring sand mound.
Any thoughts??
What you are supposed to do is use the same like/ kind of equipment and retrace the boundary’s as originally set. Using GPS will not provide the same results and they are also subject to error. Many firms use GPS, but very few can talk educated about how it works and the math needed and used to compute a fix. What they were supposed to do is see if they can plot the provided legal description to the ground points and show deviation. I can assure you if we went to court the judge will go with conventional theodolite (turned angles and distance) over GPS. Do not get me wrong GPS is a great land survey tool. It is not the only tool. So much is missed by “leapfrogging” a GPS rover.
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